The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped

Following on from our previous conversation in episode 16, Kristy and I explore the mirroring of individual and collective dark nights, and how we’re currently living in a moment in which “the public body is waking up to the control mechanisms.” We talk about the hierarchical structures – both within and around us – that are desperate to hold onto power; the power-over conditioning that teaches us to ignore our own natural intelligence; and the nature of empire, and how it requires us to be numb or deadened.
We touch on – amongst many other things – reconnecting with the ancient aliveness that lives within us; the depravity of empire and how it impacts our nervous systems; and what happens when “we get to see the way the state has become internalised.” We discuss clarity, and the trust that comes from jumping into the abyss; becoming our own prison guards, and our unintentional complicity in our own degradation; and beginning to see that a much better life is possible, both individually and collectively. We also wonder at following the thread of the natural intelligence; the importance of dismantling both inner and outer empires for future generations; and wanting to experience how good it could be.

Kristy Johnsson has spent over 20 years diving deep into the historical, cultural, and spiritual roots of our collective crisis, doing federally-funded research in Alaska and teaching college students in Arizona, before ending up practicing somatic ecotherapy as a licensed therapist. She has been facilitating somatic sessions for a decade and is now using a somatic approach to help people turn the emotions they feel about world issues into power, insight, and creativity.
Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.
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Mentions
Kristy mentions US Secretary of State Marco Rubio’s speech at the Munich Security Conference in February 2025.
She also mentions Goliath’s Curse: The History and Future of Societal Collapse by Luke Kemp.

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You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: [email protected]
Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Jax and I begin with remembering the physicality of our bodies, and how African cultures intimately know the strength and magnificence of the body. We talk about the dark night as a going down into the depths and coming back out again; as a reconnection with our ancestral lines, and “the many gifts” that come down to us from our ancestors; and as a continual spiral that we eventually learn to dance around.
Jax describes how she was brought to her knees while tending to her daughter, and how they began to listen to the voices that were “talking to us on so many levels.” Amongst many other things, we also talk about the howl of the untamed within and remembering the animal that we are; the dark night being “an experience of the wrestling with what’s trying to speak to you,” and dancing with our ancestors, both metaphorically and literally. We explore the mourning that happens during the dark night; the possibilities of bringing the dark night out from behind closed doors and into community with others; and discovering that we can be with more than one truth simultaneously. And finally, Jax shares a beautiful invocation that came to her recently.

Jax Bull is an interfaith minister, counsellor, breathworker, and founder of The Serenity Practice. She creates collective spaces in which people can feel real again, and where it’s safe to unravel. Once a month, she opens her house in Dorset, UK for women to bring whatever they’re carrying, and to be held in community. She also offers two free online community spaces, Community Breath Alchemy and ADHD Breathwork.
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Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works with many people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers both a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.
Connect with Fiona

Mentions
Jax mentions Ancestral Connections.
She also cites the poem Please Call Me By My True Names, by Thich Nhat Hanh, and the song Coming Around Again, by Carly Simon.

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You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: [email protected]
Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Onyi’s dark night began when cracks appeared after she was let go from her third job in a row. She could no longer ignore the incongruence between her self-concept and reality, and “a lot of the foundation of who I thought I was” began to shatter. Initially, her defensive armour fought back, but “once the floodgates opened,” her ego began to dissolve. Gradually, and with the support of a therapist, she went from being adrift at sea on a raft to building and learning how to sail a sturdy, capacious ship.
Amongst many other things, we talk about the importance of radical honesty and the desire to be rooted in the truth; the sheer exhaustion that comes with having to keep the floodgates closed; and coming down into a reality deeper than rigid ideas of good and bad. We touch on understanding our trauma strategies and how they were born out of real moments; how therapy and spirituality can be used to bolster the self-concept; and how the false ego needs to be mourned. We also discuss discovering more stable foundations on which to rest ourselves; taking baby steps to grow a new self; and how our initial realisations have deepened over time.
Onyi Ijeh is the host of Interesting People of Earth, a digital campfire for meaningful dialogue about life and purpose. Onyi has a background in International Development and Communications but has recently had to pivot her career due to political developments in the U.S. Onyi has taken this time to pursue her passion for storytelling and person advocacy via her tik tok @wontonamera and her podcast @interestingpplofearth.
Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works with many people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers both a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.
Connect with Fiona
Mentions
Onyi mentions Plato’s Allegory of the Cave.
If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please rate, subscribe, and share.
You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: [email protected]
Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

For many years, Malcolm avoided both his own suffering and the suffering of the world in every way he could. Taking himself to be “a favoured son of God,” he was definitely, as he says, “on the path to being a spiritual bypasser and magical thinker.” Then in 2014, his world was completely flipped when his oldest daughter took her own life, and he had to face everything he’d been oblivious to, including his own pain and the reality of his relationships. A few years later, a second dark night was precipitated by a heart attack. On the way to the hospital, he had a moment of sublime peace which left a lasting impression.
Amongst many other things, Malcolm and I talk about disillusionment and the end of naivety; the nature of true surrender and daring to jump off the edge; and how he feels “like a novice now, rather than someone on the verge of enlightenment.” We touch into the belief in being special; following the deep intelligence of the unfolding; no longer looking for external ways to assuage our loneliness; and going through nihilistic phases. We also discuss the importance of discernment; the evolution of being; and finding wisdom in unexpected places.
Malcolm Stern is an individual and group psychotherapist, and the co-founder of Alternatives in London. He runs groups and teaches courses, and offers executive coaching and organisational training programmes. His approach involves finding where the heart is and helping individuals access their truth. He is also the author (with Ben Craib) of Slay Your Dragons with Compassion and (with Su Bristow) Falling in Love, Staying in Love, and he is the host of the Slay Your Dragons with Compassion podcast.
Connect with Malcolm
Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works with many people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers both a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.
Connect with Fiona
Mentions
Malcolm mentions Pachelbel's Canon in D major.
He also mentions Victor Frankl, the author of Man’s Search for Meaning; the Sufi teachers Hazrat Inayat Khan and Pir Vilayat Khan; the I Ching; and Dina Glouberman.

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You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: [email protected]
Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Julian and I “begin before the beginning” and discuss the Christian origins of the phrase dark night of the soul. I remind him of an email he sent to me at the start of my dark night; we talk about the downward trajectory of the descent into soul, body, history, and pain, and how it is the opposite of the idea of spiritual ascent; and we describe it as an ongoing shedding of armour, ideas, expectations, shoulds, and more.
Amongst many other things, we also touch on no longer being “on the old map with the old co-ordinates”; dissolution, and the collapse of the old structures; the problem with dismissing our own cultural roots; and Jesus as an archetypal story of divine embodiment. We share our experiences of serious wobbles and severe anxiety; the sudden dawning of what has previously been invisible; cleaving to suffering and the tendency to fall back; and the importance of not getting washed out of the boat. We acknowledge how tough it is to be in the dark night; we mention healing, and what that might mean in this context; and we talk about how love, sanity, and capacity slowly begin to seep in and imbue us.

Julian Carlyon is the author of two books: One Earth, Three Worlds: The Pattern that Connects Dreams, Synchronicity, Physics, Homeopathy, Spirituality and Somatics, and Understanding Homeopathy, Homeopathic Understanding: Foundations of Homeopathic Philosophy and Practice. Since his early twenties, he has explored an eclectic range of disciplines, including homeopathy, transpersonal psychology, alchemy, and movement practice. He sees clients from around the world, lives in the UK, and is a father and grandfather.
Connect with Julian
Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She meets with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.
Connect with Fiona
Mentions
Julian mentions the Diamond Approach, founded by A. H. Almaas.
Julian paraphrases this quote from C. G. Jung: “Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.”

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share.
You're welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: [email protected]
Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit