GOOD ON WOOD

On today’s special 20th episode of the Good on Wood Podcast we reboot an interview between Howard Thurman and Landrum Bolling from 1976 thanks to the good folk at the Howard Thurman Digital Archive. This edited and freshly remastered conversation follows Howard Thurman from his boyhood in segregated Daytona Beach to his seminary years, teaching career, and mystical theology and praxis. Thurman reflects on the spiritual power of nature, his grandmother’s influence, racial humiliation, prayer, hope, and nonviolence as a love ethic to survive a hostile world.
If you haven’t heard our previous episode “Howard Thurman and the Disinherited w. Dr. Paul Harvey” hit pause and give it a listen first. Then return here to listen to Thurman in his own words.
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To learn more about St Stephen’s University and all of our program offerings in Theology & Culture, Peace & Justice, or Reconciliation Studies visit us at - ssu.ca
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.”
- HOWARD THURMAN



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Howard Thurman knew the real battle starts inside you. Before you can change the world, can you face your own fear, hypocrisy, and hunger for approval? Historian Dr. Paul Harvey joins Steve Schallert and Jarrod McKenna to trace the life, mysticism, and revolutionary influence of one of the 20th century’s most important spiritual thinkers.
Thurman’s story is astonishing: born into poverty in segregated Florida, shaped by a grandmother who had been enslaved, mentored by the people and ideas that formed Black religious life, and later propelled into conversations with Quakers, Gandhi, and the architects of the American freedom movement. Harvey reveals how Thurman’s inner life was forged by hardship, why trees, storms, and the silence mattered so much to his spirituality, and how those influences became the foundation for a vision of liberation that still challenges the church today.
Harvey also brings Thurman into the present moment, connecting his warnings about hatred, fear, and dehumanisation to our own age of outrage and exhaustion. This is not just a biography lesson - it is a bracing invitation to recover the contemplative depth social movements desperately need if they are going to last.
Essential listening if you care about spirituality, justice, nonviolence, or the question Thurman kept asking: Who are you really?

ABOUT DR. PAUL HARVEY
Paul Harvey is Distinguished Professor of History and Presidential Teaching Scholar at UCCS. Harvey is the recipient of the James W. C. Pennington Award from the Heidelberg Center for American Studies at the University of Heidelberg, Germany, given to scholars who have done distinguished work on slavery, emancipation, peace, education, reform, civil rights, and religion; and is also the Co-Director of the Center for the Study of Evangelicalism at UCCS. He researches, writes, and teaches in the field of American history from the 16th century to the present. He is the author/editor of thirteen books and numerous articles.
Most recently, Paul Harvey is the author of Martin Luther King: A Religious Life (Rowman & Littlefield, 2021), and Howard Thurman Howard Thurman and the Disinherited: A Religious Biography (Eerdmans Press, 2020), as well as Christianity and Race in the American South: A History(University of Chicago Press, 2016), and Bounds of Their Habitation: Religion and Race in American History (Rowman & Littlefield, 2017). Professor Harvey’s recent co-authored book The Color of Christ: The Son of God and the Saga of Race in America, was named a “Top 25 Outstanding Academic Title” by Choice magazine in 2013, an award selected from among the several thousand academic books published in the previous year.
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To learn more about St Stephen’s University and all of our program offerings in Theology & Culture, Peace & Justice, or Reconciliation Studies visit us at - ssu.ca



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In a world beset by violence and division, the story of Peggy & Art Gish unveil a radical, incarnational faith that challenges us to embody love in the midst of chaos. Their life's work - centered in peace activism, nonviolent resistance, and deep spiritual practice - demonstrates that transformation begins within and radiates outward in the pursuit of healing justice in Iraq, Palestine, Chicago, rural Ohio and elsewhere. Today’s episode of Good on Wood explores how living out the gospel’s call to radical discipleship can change not only hearts but systems which breed violence, inspiring a boldness rooted in love and faithful risk-taking.
Joined by Peggy Faw Gish and Cliff Kindy, we hear powerful stories from their five decades of activism - Art standing unarmed before the tanks in Hebron, Peggy working amidst children in war-torn Baghdad, and their collective journey through civil rights, anti-war movements, and international peacemaking. You’ll discover how their Church of the Brethren spirituality - grounded in the teachings of Jesus and lived out in community - serves as a wellspring of courage and clarity in the face of systemic evil. Their insights illuminate the spiritual disciplines that sustain them: prayer, fasting, pilgrimage, and fearless engagement with opponents, embodying a faith that refuses to remain abstract or personal but insists on active, sacrificial love.
Our conversation hinged on a call for revolutionary change - deep-rooted change - which starts inside each of us. Peggy and Cliff illustrate how the Spirit’s power fuels activism that’s both passionate and strategic, living as if the Kingdom has already come and building communities that reflect that hope. Their witness urges us to visualize a future where justice flows like a mighty river, and change begins with the courage to boldly embody that love today.
As Peggy reminds us, “You don’t gotta” - but you get to - partner with God for justice, love, and peace. Whether you’re inspired to take small steps or big leaps, their stories challenge us to be courageous, curious, and uncompromising in living out the call of Jesus.
Peggy and Art’s lifelong commitment to peace, justice, and faith stems from their long roots in the Community Peacemaker Teams witness, the Church of the Brethren pietism, and a radical understanding of discipleship. Their witness is a testament to what it means to live faithfully in a broken world—pointing not just to hope, but to the active love that transforms all of us.

ABOUT CLIFF KINDY
Kindy is a Midwestern farmer who eschews swords and is familiar with plowshares. An organic market farmer alongside his partner Arlene in Wabash County, Indiana, Cliff has worked for more than thirty years with Community Peacemaker Teams (CPT), on the Steering Committee, and in the conflict zones of the world. From Gaza to Iraq, Nigeria to Colombia, and back to the United States, Kindy’s witness for peace reveals a hidden truth behind the work of Community Peacemaker Team, a civilian 'nonviolent special ops, ' who for more than thirty years have been infiltrating war zones to de-escalate violence, accompany peacemakers, and serve the victims of war--all for the sake of Jesus,’ nonviolence is most effective when it intentionally retakes the initiative from the actors of violence.

ABOUT PEGGY FAW GISH
Peggy Faw Gish was born in northern Nigeria to American missionaries. She grew up in Chicago and has been active in peace and justice work all of her adult life. She volunteered in Iraq with Community Peacemaker Teams before, during, and after the March 2003 US invasion.
Her first book, Iraq: A Journey of Hope and Peace (2004), covers the first year and a half of the Iraq War. Her second book, Walking through Fire: Iraqis’ Struggle for Justice and Reconciliation (2013), picks up the story from 2004 to 2011.
Peggy is a mother, grandmother, community mediator, and member of the Church of the Brethren. She has been an organic vegetable farmer and lives on the farm near Athens, Ohio, that she established with her late husband, Arthur “Art” Gish, another veteran peace activist. She loves to walk in the woods and loves to hunt wild mushrooms, fruits, and berries.

COMMUNITY PEACEMAKER TEAMS
CPT places teams at the invitation of local peacemaking communities that are confronting situations of lethal conflict. These teams support and amplify the voices of local peacemakers who risk injury and death by waging nonviolent direct action to confront systems of violence and oppression.
CPT understands violence to be rooted in systemic structures of oppression. We are committed to undoing oppressions, starting within our own lives and in the practices of our organization.
CPT enlists spiritual communities and individuals in an organized, nonviolent alternative to war. CPT’s initial roots among Mennonites, Church of the Brethren and Quakers have spread into a broad multi-faith network that supports spiritually-centered peacemaking, creative public witness, nonviolent direct action, and protection of human rights.
TO LEARN MORE VISIT - cpt.org

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To learn more about St Stephen’s University and all of our program offerings in Theology & Culture, Peace & Justice, or Reconciliation Studies visit us at - ssu.c


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In today’s episode of Good on Wood, we are joined by renowned ethicist, author and professor David P. Gushee to explore the not so ordinary - ordinary story of Magda and André Trocmé, whose steadfast commitment to nonviolence and stubborn sense of duty to love the stranger led them to save thousands of lives during the Holocaust. As community leaders in the rural French village of Le Chambon-sur-Lignon, the Trocmé’s helped spur on a radical movement of rescue and costly hospitality of Jews amid WWII. Through their example, we confront what it means to follow Jesus in the face of systemic evil and how their legacy challenges contemporary responses to violence, racism, nationalism, and Christian identity.
*A special thanks to CUNY for use of the archival recordings of Nelly Trocmé Hewett (Madga & André’s daughter) used throughout this episode.
ABOUT REV. DR. PROF. DAVID P. GUSHEE
David P. Gushee earned his Ph.D. in Christian ethics from Union Theological Seminary (NY). Now in his fourth decade of teaching, he has served as Distinguished University Professor of Christian Ethics at Mercer University since 2007. He is also Chair of Christian Social Ethics at Vrije Universiteit (Free University) and Senior Research Fellow at its partner school, International Baptist Theological Study Centre. Through these Amsterdam-based institutions he is privileged to supervise Ph.D. students from around the world.
Gushee is the elected past-president of the American Academy of Religion and the Society of Christian Ethics. As of 2025 he is the author, co-author, editor, or co-editor of 30 books, including the bestsellers Kingdom Ethics and Changing Our Mind. His other most notable works are Defending Democracy from Its Christian Enemies, After Evangelicalism, and most recently, The Moral Teachings of Jesus. He lectures and consults globally, regularly speaking to the press and on podcasts as well as in academic and ecumenical church settings. He is widely regarded as one of his generation’s most significant Christian moral thinkers.
Over a full 30-year career, he’s been a devoted teacher and mentor as Professor Gushee to college students, seminarians, and PhD students. He’s also led activist efforts on climate, torture, and LGBTQ inclusion, and continues to be a keynote speaker at churches, forums, and universities.
David's Website | David's Books
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To learn more about St Stephen’s University and all of our program offerings in Theology & Culture, Peace & Justice, or Reconciliation Studies visit us at - ssu.c


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In today’s episode of Good on Wood, we are joined by our dear comrade, Shane Claiborne, and delve into the remarkable journey of Sister Margaret McKenna, whose life was a beacon of hope and transformation in the streets of Philadelphia and beyond. Sr. Margaret passed away a few weeks ago on April 22, 2026. She was a Medical Mission Sister Margaret who founded New Jerusalem Now! in 1989, an addiction recovery community and program which is still running. She held a PhD in Scripture and Christian Origins, taught religion at LaSalle College, was an ardent anti-war active who joined dozens of nonviolent protests leading to arrests, including a Plowshares action which landed her in prison. Sr. Margaret integrated her yearning to live as a hermit with her love for community, sharing her compassion generously, especially with those living on the margins. ¡PRESENTE!
ABOUT SHANE CLAIBORNE
Shane Claiborne is a prominent speaker, activist, and best-selling author. Shane worked with Mother Teresa in Calcutta, and founded The Simple Way in Philadelphia. He heads up Red Letter Christians, a movement of folks who are committed to living "as if Jesus meant the things he said." Shane is a champion for grace which has led him to jail advocating for the homeless, and to places like Iraq and Afghanistan to stand against war. Now grace fuels his passion to end the death penalty and help stop gun violence.
A word from Shane just after McKenna’s passing -
“Sr. Margaret McKenna died this week. She’s one of the holiest, and most humbly human, people I’ve ever met. I’m gonna miss her, but I know there’s a party on the other side welcoming her home. Few people have had more impact on my spiritual life than Sr. Margaret. For three decades, she has been one of my dearest friends and mentors. She taught me about prayer, monasticism, community, holy mischief, resistance, courage. We prayed together, and got pepper-sprayed together. We gardened together. We laughed together until we wheezed, and our sides hurt. She blew the shofar on Wall Street as we dumped $10,000 outside the Stock Exchange so homeless folks could have a little taste of the biblical Jubilee. We sang freedom songs, marched in the rain, camped out under the stars… and we went to jail together more times than I can count – doing the good trouble and holy mischief. At one point we were both sentenced to mandatory, court-sanctioned “citizenship training classes” to train us to obey the law… but it didn’t work. Haha. Several years ago, I went to visit her when she was in the hospital, and we weren’t sure she was going to make it… I called a few days later to check on her and one of the nuns said: “She recovered surprisingly well… so well she just went to jail at the Pentagon protesting the war.” Sr. Margaret is a true gift to the world – to me, to all of us at The Simple Way, to the countless folks she welcomed home off the streets or coming out of prison at New Jerusalem. I will miss her something fierce.”
[Here’s a picture of us in the abandoned church where we met, as homeless families sought sanctuary inside… and where our vision for The Simple Way was born. This was a few years ago as we remembered the original takeover of St. Edwards church back in 1995.]
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To learn more about St Stephen’s University and all of our program offerings in Theology & Culture, Peace & Justice, or Reconciliation Studies visit us at - ssu.ca
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Season 1 of The Schism Between Us is releasing June, 2026, follow Marnie Klassen, as she set out to discover why Mennonites and Mennonite Brethren in Canada don’t always get along . . .


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