The Agile Embedded Podcast

We flip the script for episode 100! Instead of hosting, Luca and Jeff become the guests as Joe Schneider and Jacob Beningo take over the interview chair. We look back at how two consultants from opposite sides of the world accidentally started a podcast, share war stories about the hardest bugs we've ever chased (spoiler: weeks of work for one-line fixes), and discuss why "Agile" might not be the buzzword it once was. The conversation touches on everything from helicopter avionics to the future of AI in embedded systems, plus some honest talk about what keeps us going after five and a half years and 100 episodes.

Key Topics

[02:30] Origin story: How a consulting group for solopreneurs brought together two embedded engineers from California and Munich

[08:00] Favorite episodes and memorable guests: James Grenning, Miro Samek, Matthew Eshelman, and the value of reaching out to people you admire

[15:00] Why "Agile Embedded"? Finding an unclaimed niche at the intersection of Agile practices and embedded systems

[25:00] War stories: The hardest bugs to fix - from five-day hunts for one-line interrupt bugs to months tracking down temperature-dependent DDR RAM failures

[35:00] The dynamic between hosts: Jeff keeps things concrete, Luca pulls back to the big picture - and why that balance matters

[42:00] Looking ahead: AI as "the new Agile," requirements engineering's renewed importance, and navigating the hype cycle

[50:00] The Gartner hype cycle and AI: Are we heading for the trough of disillusionment, or is this an exponential that never stops?

Notable Quotes

"No one gives you permission. You're listening to us because we started talking, and maybe some of you found it interesting. But you can put yourself out there, and you learn by speaking." — Jeff Gable

"Testing is like vacuuming. It's only fun if it rattles in the hose. It's just no fun to test a system that has no bugs." — Luca Ingianni

"AI really is the new Agile - the magical fairy dust that you can sprinkle over your team. It'll take a while for people to realize that this is also much harder than it looks." — Luca Ingianni

Resources Mentioned

Embedded Vibe - Joe Schneider's benchmarking site testing LLMs' ability to generate embedded code in one shot

Beningo Embedded Group - Jacob Beningo's consulting and training services for embedded systems development

Dojo Five - Joe Schneider's embedded systems consulting and development company

Embedded Systems Summit - In-person conference organized by Jacob Beningo and Stefan, planned for mid-November in the Bay Area

Agile Embedded Podcast Slack - Community discussion channel where you can reach the hosts and connect with other listeners

You can find Jeff at https://jeffgable.com.
You can find Luca at https://luca.engineer.
Want to join the agile Embedded Slack? Click here
Are you looking for embedded-focused trainings? Head to https://agileembedded.academy/
Ryan Torvik and Luca have started the Embedded AI podcast, check it out at https://embeddedaipodcast.com/

In the third installment of our requirements engineering series, Luca and Jeff shift focus from requirements themselves to the bigger picture: how do you actually turn ideas into working products? We explore the journey from product vision through roadmaps to backlogs, discussing what makes a good roadmap and—perhaps more importantly—the surprisingly common mistakes that even experienced teams make.

We dig into practical challenges like the "progress by PowerPoint" trap (putting milestones like "specification complete" on your roadmap instead of actual value delivery), the dangers of over-committing to dates before you understand the problem space, and why most organizations struggle with prioritization. Luca shares insights from his agile requirements engineering training, including a clever trap he sets for participants around roadmap design. We also tackle the iron triangle of project management and why varying resources is often the least effective lever to pull when a project is running late. Whether you're a product manager, engineering lead, or startup founder, this episode offers a grounded perspective on planning that respects both ambition and reality.

Key Topics

[02:15] The hierarchy of planning artifacts: from product vision to roadmaps to backlogs

[03:30] What makes a good product vision (Kennedy's moon landing speech as the gold standard)

[06:45] Roadmaps as alignment and discovery tools, not static commitments

[11:20] The prototyping phase and managing uncertainty in early-stage planning

[15:40] Common mistake #1: Putting the wrong things on roadmaps ("specification complete" vs. actual value milestones)

[21:30] The danger of over-committing to dates before understanding the problem (especially in VC-funded startups)

[26:15] Tailoring roadmaps for different audiences (internal, customer-facing, investor-facing)

[30:45] The failure to prioritize and its impact on roadmap execution

[35:20] Finding the right level of granularity: the iceberg principle for roadmaps

[40:10] The iron triangle of project management and why varying resources is the least effective lever

[43:30] Who should own the roadmap (product management's role in synthesis and collaboration)

Notable Quotes

"If somebody has visions they should go see a doctor—but still, you know, it makes sense to have such a thing. A product vision should be nice and compact, like Kennedy's moon landing speech: what we're doing, the timeline, and the value." — Luca Ingianni

"I don't care about the stupid presentation. Show me a product increment. Show me captured value. Then we're talking. Anything else is just smoke and mirrors." — Luca Ingianni

"Plans are useless but planning is indispensable. That process of getting all the key players in the same room and trying to hash out this schedule is where you will uncover the biggest uncertainties and risks." — Jeff Gable

Resources Mentioned

Agile Embedded Podcast Episode 31 - Interview with John Odo on product roadmaps (May 2022)

Luca's Agile Requirements Engineering Training - Training course covering requirements, roadmaps, and product planning

BaseRef - Jeff's new product for requirements and test management for medical device startups

The Mythical Man-Month - Classic book on software project management discussing why adding people to late projects makes them later

Agile Embedded Podcast Slack - Community discussion channel where you can reach the hosts and connect with other listeners

You can find Jeff at https://jeffgable.com.
You can find Luca at https://luca.engineer.
Want to join the agile Embedded Slack? Click here
Are you looking for embedded-focused trainings? Head to https://agileembedded.academy/
Ryan Torvik and Luca have started the Embedded AI podcast, check it out at https://embeddedaipodcast.com/

We talk with Pete Staples, founder of Blue Clover Devices, about the often-overlooked challenge of flashing firmware in production. Pete shares insights from running a contract manufacturing operation in Shenzhen and explains why the handoff from engineering to manufacturing is more like "hucking it over a fence" than a smooth relay race.

We explore the gap between engineers' assumptions about factory capabilities and the dusty reality of production floors. Pete discusses security challenges, the complexity of modern microcontroller programming, and how Blue Clover's Production Line Tool addresses the middle ground between expensive custom automation and ad-hoc bench setups. We also touch on provisioning, calibration workflows, and why the engineer who designs the product must also define how it's tested.

Key Topics

[02:30] The reality of factory firmware flashing - dusty PCs, hot glue, and cables everywhere

[06:15] Security challenges: managing sensitive firmware and the "glass room" solution

[09:45] The gap between engineer assumptions and factory reality - no, they don't have better equipment than you

[14:20] In-circuit testing and bed-of-nails fixtures explained

[22:30] The Production Line Tool: standardizing hardware and software across engineering and factory

[28:00] Recording what matters: firmware versions, hardware serial numbers, and test results per device

[31:45] Provisioning and security: webhooks, cloud databases, and managing secrets in production

[38:20] The Test Agent: a companion device for running third-party software and complex programming workflows

[43:00] Who should write the test plan? Why engineers must define "good enough" before production

Notable Quotes

"Engineers assume that the factories are a lot more sophisticated than they really are. In reality, it's a lot more like just hucking it over a fence and just hoping there's somebody there waiting." — Pete Staples

"They show you their pick-and-place machine and 10-zone reflow oven, and you're like, 'wow, these guys are tipped off.' And then rarely do they say, 'oh, and here's where we do firmware flashing.' It's normally another floor of the building, dimly lit, dusty old PCs." — Pete Staples

"The engineer responsible for the product has to not only engineer the product, but how it's tested. They can't just say, 'here's a bunch of design files, build it and let's see what happens.'" — Pete Staples

Resources Mentioned

Blue Clover Devices - Pete's company specializing in factory firmware flashing solutions

Embedded World (Nuremberg) - Annual trade show in March where Blue Clover exhibits

Embedded World North America (Anaheim) - North American version of Embedded World, September 22nd

Kinetic (San Francisco) - Hardware-focused event put on by Hardware FYI

You can find Jeff at https://jeffgable.com.
You can find Luca at https://luca.engineer.
Want to join the agile Embedded Slack? Click here
Are you looking for embedded-focused trainings? Head to https://agileembedded.academy/
Ryan Torvik and Luca have started the Embedded AI podcast, check it out at https://embeddedaipodcast.com/

Requirements Engineering Part 2: A Practical Process for Safety-Critical Development

In this second part of our requirements engineering series, Jeff walks us through his preferred process for developing safety-critical products, particularly medical devices. We explore the crucial distinction between prototyping and design-controlled development, discussing when to start formal requirements work and how to keep your first version minimal yet complete.

Jeff emphasizes the importance of deeply fleshing out requirements before implementation—including error handling, which often comprises 70% of a product. We discuss tracer bullets as a development strategy, the value of writing test cases alongside requirements, and why tracking requirements completion gives you honest project status. Luca and Jeff also debate the finer points of MVPs versus prototypes, and Jeff announces his upcoming requirements management tool for medical device startups.

Key Topics

[00:00] Introduction and listener feedback on Part 1

[02:30] The prototyping phase: answering 'can we build it?' and 'should we build it?' before design controls

[06:00] Luca vs. Jeff: The great MVP and prototype debate

[12:00] Starting the V-model: minimal but deeply fleshed-out requirements for V1

[18:00] Error handling is 70% of your product—don't skip it in requirements

[22:00] When to write test cases: early, alongside requirements

[26:00] War story: the SATCOM system that needed a satellite slot in five years

[32:00] Project management: tracking requirements completion for honest status updates

[38:00] Tracer bullets: vertical slices through all layers, not horizontal completion

[45:00] Jeff's upcoming requirements and test management tool for medical device startups

Notable Quotes

"Error handling is 70% of your product, if not more. If you only do the 30% of the requirements for the happy path, you're fooling yourself." — Jeff

"If you don't get this right at the outset, it will haunt you through the entirety of your product development process." — Luca

"Paper is the best place to figure it out. Actually think through the requirements rigorously before you start building." — Jeff

Resources Mentioned

Agile Embedded Slack Channel - Community discussion space for embedded development topics

Matt Pocock's YouTube Channel - AI for serious engineers, discusses tracer bullets and AI-assisted development

The Pragmatic Programmer - Classic software development book, source of the tracer bullet concept

The Art of Unix Programming by Eric S. Raymond - Referenced for the chapter 'Don't just do something. Stand there.'

Embedded.fm Episode 440: Condemned to Being Perfect - Crossover episode with Elecia White and Christopher White, where bootloaders and update strategies came up

Jeff's Requirements Management Tool - Upcoming requirements, risk, and test management tool for medical device startups

You can find Jeff at https://jeffgable.com.
You can find Luca at https://luca.engineer.
Want to join the agile Embedded Slack? Click here
Are you looking for embedded-focused trainings? Head to https://agileembedded.academy/
Ryan Torvik and Luca have started the Embedded AI podcast, check it out at https://embeddedaipodcast.com/

Fuzzing and Dynamic Analysis for High-Integrity Software with Paul Butcher

We sit down with Paul Butcher, Unit Director of Dynamic Analysis at AdaCore, to explore verification techniques beyond basic compliance in safety-critical software. Paul shares his experience from Eurofighter to automated trains, explaining how dynamic analysis—from unit testing to coverage analysis to fuzzing—helps find bugs that traditional testing misses.

The conversation dives deep into fuzzing: how it works, why it's so effective at finding corner-case bugs (even in well-tested systems), and the challenges of applying it to embedded systems with timing constraints. Paul introduces an intriguing approach that combines static analysis with targeted fuzzing to automatically triage false positives and generate reproducers. We also touch on formal verification, the role of LLMs in verification workflows, and why the simplest software is often the safest. Whether you're working in aerospace, medical devices, or any safety-critical domain, this episode offers practical insights into building more robust systems.

Key Topics

[02:30] Paul's background in high-integrity embedded systems: Eurofighter, rail, drones, and AdaCore's dynamic analysis tools

[05:00] Dynamic vs. static analysis: executing code to observe real behavior across different environments

[08:15] How fuzzing works: mutation engines, anomaly detection, and finding bugs through negative testing

[14:20] Challenges of fuzzing timing and concurrency bugs in embedded systems

[17:45] Real-world success: fuzzing the NH90 avionics via the MIL bus uncovered numerous bugs

[22:30] Safety standards (DO-178C, SIL levels) and objective-based approaches vs. checkbox compliance

[28:00] Determining 'enough' fuzzing: coverage, input space complexity, and building certification arguments

[32:15] Combining static analysis with targeted fuzzing to automatically triage false positives and generate reproducers

[38:45] Symbolic execution and theorem provers: breaking through complex branch conditions in fuzzing campaigns

[42:00] Shift-left philosophy: building verifiable software from the start with testing and analysis tools

[47:30] Formal verification in practice: London Underground's Victoria line uses SPARK-proven emergency braking

[51:00] LLMs in verification: cautious adoption for report analysis, but determinism remains critical for core tools

[54:30] High Integrity Software Conference (HISC) in Birmingham, October 2026

Notable Quotes

"Software testing is typically about, is it functionally correct? Fuzzing is like a negative testing technique. It's the inverse of that. It fires random inputs into your system with the intent of finding anomalies." — Paul Butcher

"Every time I speak to someone who's tried fuzzing, even if it's a system that's considered high integrity with a high level of assurance, they always find something. It's really good at eking out those weird corner case scenarios." — Paul Butcher

"With testing you would like to prove the absence of bugs, but unfortunately you can't. So you have to settle for a very distant second place of proving the presence of bugs." — Luca Ingianni

Resources Mentioned

Paul's paper on fuzzing in safety-critical contexts - Detailed discussion of how to argue 'enough' fuzzing for certification

High Integrity Software Conference (HISC) - Annual conference in Birmingham, UK (October 2026) covering high-integrity software across industries

AdaCore Dynamic Analysis Tools - Coverage, fuzzing, and unit testing solutions for high-integrity software

SPARK formal verification - Formal proof technology used in London Underground's Victoria line emergency braking

AFL++ - Successor to the discontinued AFL (American Fuzzy Lop): Fuzzing technology mentioned as capable of quickly finding the Heartbleed bug

You can find Jeff at https://jeffgable.com.
You can find Luca at https://luca.engineer.
Want to join the agile Embedded Slack? Click here
Are you looking for embedded-focused trainings? Head to https://agileembedded.academy/
Ryan Torvik and Luca have started the Embedded AI podcast, check it out at https://embeddedaipodcast.com/