Brought to you by Pendo—The all-in-one platform for product-led companies building breakthrough digital experiences | Wix Studio—The web creation platform built for agencies | Masterworks—Invest in blue-chip art—Nilan Peiris is Chief Product Officer at Wise, one of the fastest-growing (and profitable) tech companies in the world. Wise allows anyone to send money in more than 60 currencies to over 160 countries at low cost, and throughout its history has grown primarily through word of mouth. In today’s episode, we discuss:• Tactical advice on driving word of mouth (WOM)• Strategies for measuring WOM• How NPS surveys helped Wise determine their growth and product strategy• How Wise incentivizes teams to do the hard things• The small change that generated a 3x increase in referrals• How Wise structures its product and growth teams—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-drive-word-of-mouth-nilan-peiris-cpo-of-wise/#transcript—Where to find Nilan Peiris:• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/nilanp• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nilanpeiris/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Nilan’s background(03:27) A brief overview of Wise(06:11) How word of mouth is measured(07:56) Why Wise leaned into WOM(10:21) Why Wise built their WOM motion using the NPS method(16:13) How WOM solves trust problems(18:55) How to get to 9 or 10 on the NPS scale(20:51) Determining what will wow users(21:31) Common missteps companies make when trying to drive WOM(23:24) Using the “working backward” method at Airbnb(25:45) How Wise is able to offer drastically lower money transfer fees (27:51) The three costs associated with moving money(32:02) Rational vs. irrational reasons behind recommendations(34:11) Prioritizing customer happiness(38:14) How Wise approaches experimentation(46:11) Thoughts on performance reviews and general analysis(48:06) How Wise provides a 10x better banking experience(51:57) Advice on how to approach word-of-mouth marketing(53:47) Building a culture of doing hard things(55:59) The macrostructure of international banking and where Wise fits in(57:54) How Wise solves for local regulations in their onboarding flow(1:01:49) How Wise structures teams(1:03:26) The small change that generated a 3x increase in referrals(1:08:01) Nilan’s philanthropic endeavors(1:09:13) Lightning round—Referenced:• Wise: https://wise.com/us/• Henry Chen on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/henry-h-chen/• About NPS: https://www.productboard.com/blog/the-power-of-nps-in-your-product-strategy/• How Snow White helped Airbnb prove that storytelling is the most important skill in design: https://uxdesign.cc/how-airbnb-proved-that-storytelling-is-the-most-important-skill-in-design-15d04ac71039• Seth Godin: This Is How You Create a Remarkable Product: https://www.businessinsider.com/seth-godin-this-is-how-you-create-a-remarkable-product-2012-10• Discover the Spotify model: https://www.atlassian.com/agile/agile-at-scale/spotify• Beam: https://beam.org/• Affinity: https://affinityghana.com/• Crime and Punishment: https://www.amazon.com/Crime-Punishment-Volokhonsky-Translation-Classics/dp/0679734503• Midnight’s Children: https://www.amazon.com/Midnights-Children-Modern-Library-Novels/dp/0812976533• Barbie: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1517268/• Arc browser: https://arc.net/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Ezra—The leading full-body cancer screening company | Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security | LinkedIn Ads—Reach professionals and drive results for your business—Itamar Gilad is a product coach, author, and speaker with over two decades of experience in senior product roles at Google, Microsoft, and various startups. He is also the author of Evidence-Guided: Creating High-Impact Products in the Face of Uncertainty and publishes a popular product management newsletter. In today’s episode, we discuss:• What it means to be “evidence-guided”• How to think about your KPIs as metric trees• How to prioritize ideas using the “confidence meter”• The GIST model for roadmapping• Common mistakes with ICE• Advice for using evidence to challenge gut-driven founders—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/becoming-evidence-guided-itamar-gilad-gmail-youtube-microsoft/#transcript—Where to find Itamar Gilad:• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/ItamarGilad• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/itamargilad/• Website: https://itamargilad.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Itamar’s background(04:35) How his time working on Gmail shaped his philosophy of “opinion-based” development(08:35) Lessons from developing Gmail’s tabbed inbox (13:40) A brief overview of Itamar’s book, Evidence-Guided(14:30) Balancing founder creativity with an evidence-based approach(17:32) Advice on how to push back against founders(19:36) Signs you aren’t as evidence-guided as you may think(21:13) Itamar’s GIST model for becoming more evidence-guided(23:51) How to set overarching goals using his “value exchange loop”(28:45) North star metrics vs. KPIs(33:47) Using “ICE” to assess the value of ideas(37:39) Itamar’s confidence meter(44:28) Speed of delivery vs. speed of discovery(46:14) How to apply Itamar’s frameworks based on company type and stage(49:09) First steps in becoming more evidence-guided(50:21) Next steps in testing(55:41) The task layer in the GIST framework(1:02:54) Thoughts on roadmapping(1:04:56) How OKRs fit into the whole picture(1:07:11) Lightning round—Referenced:• Itamar’s presentation slides: https://itamargilad.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/Podcast-Slides.pdf• What differentiates the highest-performing product teams | John Cutler (Amplitude, The Beautiful Mess): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/what-differentiates-the-highest-performing-product-teams-john-cutler-amplitude-the-beautiful-mess/• Evidence-Guided: Creating High-Impact Products in the Face of Uncertainty: https://itamargilad.com/book-evidence-guided/• The co-founders of Google in Forbes: https://www.forbes.com/profile/larry-page-and-sergey-brin• Kanban: https://www.atlassian.com/agile/kanban• Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira• The ultimate guide to OKRs | Christina Wodtke (Stanford): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-okrs-christina-wodtke-stanford/• Amplitude: https://amplitude.com/• The ultimate guide to A/B testing | Ronny Kohavi (Airbnb, Microsoft, Amazon): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-ab-testing-ronny-kohavi-airbnb-microsoft-amazon/• ICE framework: https://growthmethod.com/ice-framework/• Sean Ellis on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/seanellis/• RICE scoring model: https://www.productplan.com/glossary/rice-scoring-model/• Idea Prioritization with ICE and the Confidence Meter: https://itamargilad.com/the-tool-that-will-help-you-choose-better-product-ideas/• Assumptions Mapping: https://designsprintkit.withgoogle.com/methodology/phase2-define/assumptions-mapping• What is Dog Fooding, Fish Fooding a Product?: https://matt-rickard.com/fishfooding-dogfooding-product• SVPG books: https://www.svpg.com/books/• The Lean series: https://theleanstartup.com/the-lean-series• Dreaming Spanish: https://www.youtube.com/c/DreamingSpanish• ElevenLabs: https://elevenlabs.io/• Lennybot: https://www.lennybot.com/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Mixpanel—Event analytics that everyone can trust, use, and afford | Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security | Round—The private network built by tech leaders for tech leaders—Christopher Lochhead is a 14-time #1 bestselling author, top podcaster, and former 3x public tech company CMO and has been an advisor to over 50 VC-backed tech startups. He is best known as a “godfather” of category design, and Adobe named his book Play Bigger one of “the five greatest marketing books of all time.” In this episode, we discuss:• What exactly category design is• The “Frame It, Name It, Claim It” framework• How to go about designing your category• Why “languaging” is so powerful• Rating yourself on the category design scorecard• Why Chris considers “product-market fit” a dangerous concept• Chris’s spicy take on positioning• The “better trap” and why it’s crucial to avoid it• The magic triangle of product, company, and category• How to embrace negative feedback• Why the greatest time in the history of innovation is now—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-become-a-category-pirate-christopher-lochhead-author-of-play-bigger-niche-down-category/—Where to find Christopher Lochhead:• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lochhead• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopherlochhead/• Website: https://www.categorypirates.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Chris’s background(05:08) Why Chris shares his negative criticism on his website(11:58) A simple explanation of category design(18:00) How Purell mastered category design(23:07) What Gong got right (and wrong)(29:01) The “better trap” and why it’s crucial to avoid it(38:51) Reflective thinking vs. reflexive thinking(44:45) How Lomi created a revolutionary solution for food waste (48:50) The “Frame It, Name It, Claim It” framework (49:08) The concept of “languaging” (54:00) Examples of languaging (59:19) Spend more time on the problem than the solution(1:01:37) The power of “backcasting”(1:07:33) The truth behind building legendary brands(1:10:39) The problem with product-market fit(1:16:11) Chris’s spicy take on positioning(1:19:20) “Damming the demand”(1:24:49) Laws from Chris’s book The 22 Laws of Category Design(1:29:46) Word of mouth: the most powerful form of marketing(1:34:05) Chris’s closing message to listeners(1:39:01) Lightning round—Referenced:• Rick Rubin Says Trust Your Gut, Not Your Audience: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rick-rubin-says-trust-your-gut-not-your-audience/id1570872415?i=1000606447333• How to identify your ideal customer profile (ICP): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-identify-your-ideal-customer• Grant Cardone on Twitter: https://twitter.com/GrantCardone• Tai Lopez on Twitter: https://twitter.com/tailopez• The Difference Between a First Mover and a Category Creator: https://hbr.org/2019/11/the-difference-between-a-first-mover-and-a-category-creator• Gojo Industries: https://www.gojo.com/• Gartner reports: https://www.gartner.com/• Forrester reports: https://www.forrester.com/bold• Gong: https://www.gong.io/• Clari: https://www.clari.com/• Threads, Instagram’s “Twitter Killer,” Has Arrived: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/05/technology/threads-app-meta-twitter-killer.html• Kevin Maney: https://kevinmaney.com/• Red Bull cola: https://www.redbull.com/int-en/theorganics/organics-simply-cola• Microsoft Copied Apple’s Successful Retail Plan. Now It’s Shutting the Whole Thing Down: https://www.inc.com/jason-aten/microsoft-copied-apples-successful-retail-plan-now-its-shutting-whole-thing-down.html• A New Way to Think, with World’s #1 Management Thinker Roger Martin: https://lochhead.com/roger-martin/• A New Way to Think: Your Guide to Superior Management Effectiveness: https://www.amazon.com/New-Way-Think-Management-Effectiveness/dp/164782351X• RJ Scaringe on Twitter: https://twitter.com/rjscaringe• Lomi: https://lomi.com/products/lomi• Otis elevators: https://www.otis.com/en/us• How to build a breakthrough … the secret of Backcasting: https://medium.com/@m2jr/how-to-build-a-breakthrough-3071b6415b06• John Bielenberg’s website: https://www.thinknado.com/• Eddie Yoon: https://www.eddiewouldgrow.com/• Marc Andreessen on Twitter: https://twitter.com/pmarca• Snow Leopard: How Legendary Writers Create a Category of One: https://www.amazon.com/Snow-Leopard-Legendary-Writers-Category/dp/1956934456• Play Bigger: How Pirates, Dreamers, and Innovators Create and Dominate Markets: https://www.amazon.com/Play-Bigger-Dreamers-Innovators-Dominate-ebook/dp/B015MOJ80G• Niche Down: How to Become Legendary by Being Different: https://www.amazon.com/Niche-Down-Become-Legendary-Different-ebook/dp/B07FLKJJQQ• The 22 Laws of Category Design: Name & Claim Your Niche, Share Your POV, and Move The World from Where It Is to Somewhere Different: https://www.amazon.com/Laws-Category-Design-Somewhere-Different/dp/195693457X/• An inside look at Deel’s unprecedented growth | Meltem Kuran Berkowitz (Head of Growth): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/an-inside-look-at-deels-unprecedented-growth-meltem-kuran-berkowitz-head-of-growth/• Illusions: The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah: https://www.amazon.com/Illusions-Adventures-Reluctant-Richard-Bach/dp/0440204887• What They Don’t Teach You at Harvard Business School: Notes from a Street-Smart Executive: https://www.amazon.com/What-Teach-Harvard-Business-School/dp/0553345834• Inventing Anna on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81008305• The rise and fall and rise of Tony Eltherington: https://www.swellnet.com/news/swellnet-dispatch/2017/04/27/rise-and-fall-and-rise-tony-eltherington—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Jira Product Discovery—Atlassian’s new prioritization and roadmapping tool built for product teams—Oji Udezue is Chief Product Officer at Typeform and has held leadership roles at Twitter (Head of Product for Creation and Conversation), Calendly (CPO), and Atlassian (Head of Product for communication tools). He is well-known for bringing a product-led-growth (PLG) mindset to the companies he joins. Additionally, Oji mentors startups, is a Managing Partner at the Kernel Fund, and writes online about product management. In this episode, we discuss:• Oji’s “Where to Fish to Land a Unicorn” and “Zone of Benefit” frameworks• Why you need to find the “sharpest” problem• How to operationalize continuous customer discovery• Tips on optimizing onboarding flows• Freemium vs. gated offerings in PLG• Tactical strategies for making your product more viral• The concept of “forest time” and how it can provide clarity in your work—Find the transcript for this episode and all past episodes at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/episodes/. Today’s transcript will be live by 8 a.m. PT.—Where to find Oji Udezue:• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/ojiudezue• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ojiudezue/• Substack: https://substack.com/@ojiudezue—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Oji’s background(03:38) Oji’s “Where to Fish to Land a Unicorn” framework(05:26) Workflow quadrants(09:30) How product people can push frequency (12:28) Oji’s “Zone of Benefit” framework(14:49) How to find your ICPs(15:33) ICPs at Twitter(20:20) Oji’s philosophy on frameworks(22:31) Oji’s upcoming book(24:34) An explanation of “sharp problems”(28:31) Signs your problem is “sharp enough”(31:17) Discovery vs. continuous conversations(35:08) Customer listening(38:31) Onboarding fundamentals(43:49) Activated user milestones(45:47) The power of network effects(50:15) An explanation of virality and how to increase it(56:32) How to use “forest time” to zoom out and see problems in a new way(1:00:53) Lessons from Oji’s time at Bridgewater Associates(1:05:07) Why R&D teams need a larger system beyond Agile and design(1:06:57) Lightning round—Referenced:• Where to fish to land a unicorn: https://ojiudezue.medium.com/where-to-fish-to-land-a-unicorn-in-b2b-saas-9bc93c96152c• Coda: https://coda.io/• Atlassian: https://www.atlassian.com/• Finding high-frequency customers (use cases): https://ojiudezue.medium.com/finding-high-frequency-customers-use-cases-53773a753bb5• Evernote: https://evernote.com/• Industry PM conference: https://www.industryconference.com/• Typeform: https://www.typeform.com/• Build better products with continuous product discovery | Teresa Torres: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/videos/build-better-products-with-continuous-product-discovery-teresa-torres/• Pendo: https://www.pendo.io/• Amplitude: https://amplitude.com/• Dan Hockenmaier on Twitter: https://twitter.com/danhockenmaier• Seth Godin’s blog: https://seths.blog/• A key ritual: Forest time: https://ojiudezue.substack.com/p/a-key-ritual-forest-time• Principles: https://www.principles.com/• Dot Collector: https://principlesus.com/dot-collector-real-time-feedback/• The Halo Effect: . . . and the Eight Other Business Delusions That Deceive Managers: https://www.amazon.com/Halo-Effect-Business-Delusions-Managers/dp/1476784035/• Dune: https://www.amazon.com/Dune-Penguin-Galaxy-Frank-Herbert/dp/0143111582• Foundation: https://www.amazon.com/Foundation-3-Book-Boxed-Set-Empire/dp/0593499573• Foundation on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/foundation/umc.cmc.5983fipzqbicvrve6jdfep4x3• Unlox: https://unlox.it/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Mercury—the powerful and intuitive way for ambitious companies to bank | Coda—Meet the evolution of docs | Miro—A collaborative visual platform where your best work comes to life—Andy Johns is a former tech exec and VC who had a successful run at several startups—including Facebook, Twitter, Wealthfront, and Quora—but left it all behind a few years ago to take a new direction in life. Now a mental health advocate, he aids military veterans with PTSD, guides burnt-out high achievers to new paths, and shares his healing journey from childhood trauma and mental illness through his newsletter, Clues Dot Life. In this episode, we discuss:• Why Andy left his seven-figure VC career behind• The four-step process of deep personal transformation• When suffering is necessary vs. unnecessary• Tips for finding a good therapist• How a writing practice can help you heal• When you’re in need of radical transformation—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/when-enough-is-enough-andy-johns-ex-fb-twitter-quora/#transcript—Where to find Andy Johns:• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/cluesdotlife• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewjohns/• Website: https://www.clues.life/• Newsletter: https://andyjohns.substack.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Andy’s background(04:45) His personal burnout story(12:55) The high incidence of mental health struggles in tech(14:41) Why Andy walked away from a seven-figure VC job(20:29) His work in mental health advocacy (23:32) The four-step process of deep personal transformation(31:40) The ego’s involvement(33:23) Necessary vs. unnecessary suffering(37:01) First steps in understanding your suffering(38:59) Advice on finding a therapist(42:11) How a writing practice can help you heal(43:47) Two methods for writing to gain self-understanding (47:47) Signs you’re dealing with more than just typical job stress(52:22) How to move into a place of self-compassion(57:16) The unpredictable timeline of healing (59:59) How to develop compassion for others(1:02:19) Why not everyone needs a radical transformation(1:04:10) The story of Pema Chodron’s transformation (1:06:06) What holds people back from making changes(1:13:29) Finding your own unique path to healing(1:17:32) Andy’s closing message to anyone feeling pulled toward a new chapter(1:18:59) How Andy is doing now—Referenced:• How to know when to stop: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-know-when-to-stop• Heroic Hearts Project: https://heroicheartsproject.org/• Panic attacks and panic disorder: https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/4451-panic-attack-panic-disorder• The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma: https://www.amazon.com/Body-Keeps-Score-Healing-Trauma/dp/0143127748• Vipassana meditation: https://www.dhamma.org/en/index• The Power of Now: A Guide to Spiritual Enlightenment: https://www.amazon.com/Power-Now-Guide-Spiritual-Enlightenment/dp/1577314808• Moby Dick: https://www.amazon.com/Moby-Dick-Herman-Melville/dp/1503280780• When Things Fall Apart: Heart Advice for Difficult Times: https://www.amazon.com/When-Things-Fall-Apart-Difficult/dp/1611803438—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe